What determines an automaker’s nationality?

"DCCARGEEK" (dccargeek) 09/02/2013 at 14:13 • Filed to: Automotive races

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Is Jaguar still British? Is Volvo still Swedish? Is Chrysler still American?

That question has been curiously bouncing around my head since 2009. The companies above are either partly or entirely owned by entities foreign to their country of origin. My question is - does that make them less homegrown?

Chrysler, now a subsidiary of Italian-based Fiat S.p.A, still builds cars for America in America. They even have a slogan to remind you how American they are; _Imported from Detroit._

Then out comes cars like the Dart, a byproduct of the two companies that raises an interesting question: is it Italian or American? Or is it just the first of many halfbreed offsprings from a multinational corporate matrimony?

Volvo is owned by Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, parent of Chinese automaker Geely Automobile. Most people wouldn't know this because Volvo didn't inform the masses of their new owner / savior. What would be the outcome of an ad campaign titled - “Volvo, made possible by China.”

Do you think Volvo owners in America would care that Volvo is owned by a Chinese holding company?

These same questions could be asked about Jaguar and Land Rover (JLR).

In an article today Máté Petrány said,

“the British will be worth a look too, with Caterham showing off their new entry-level prototype, and Jaguar teasing already with the mysterious C-X17…”

Is JLR still a British company even though they’re owned by an Indian company (Tata Engineering)? What makes JLR British? Is it their style, manufacturing location or is it simply the brand's heritage? Purely hypothetically speaking, if Tata were to move all JLR production to China, India and the US, would you still call the company a British brand?

If JLR were so bad under Ford, why didn't we see a large marketing push to say “UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT! GET READY FOR BETTER CARS THANKS TO OUR NEW INDIAN OWNERS!”

Would something like that diminish the image of “British luxury?”

In your view, what is it that determines an automaker’s nationality and even more, what can change that perception and is that a good or bad thing to change?

Mikeado > DCCARGEEK 09/02/2013 at 14:24

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A company doesn't change nationality.

It's that simple.

Let me put it to you this way: my dad is British, but was employed for a long time by a Japanese bank. Did that make him Japanese? No. It doesn't matter where the money comes from, you're still the same nationality. Jaguar-Land Rover, as an example car maker, are still based in the UK and simply get money from Tata because they own a lot of shares. Lotus, similarly, are a British brand that are still in Hethel in Norfolk, where their cars are also made, despite getting money from Malaysia or wherever it is now.

Tom McParland > DCCARGEEK 09/02/2013 at 14:28

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For me a brand's nationality is determined by their country of origin when they first started, their history as a car-maker of that country, and how they currently identify themselves regardless of what multinational conglomerate is behind the scenes. Take Opel for example, despite the American parent company and the factories in Belgium I still view them as a German car company.

DCCARGEEK > Mikeado 09/02/2013 at 14:29

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Using that logic Volvo could start stamping FUNDED BY CHINA on all their cars and people wouldn't think twice about purchasing, correct?

Mikeado > DCCARGEEK 09/02/2013 at 14:30

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Perhaps.

DCCARGEEK > Tom McParland 09/02/2013 at 14:32

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OK, going back to Opel: Why did GM feel the need to promote the Buick Regal as German-ish? Why leverage the nationality of another brand to sell your brand here? Was GM embarrassed of their build quality here in America?

DCCARGEEK > Mikeado 09/02/2013 at 14:33

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I agree with your comment, it doesn't change the nationality, but I think it can play a part in the purchase or consideration when the parent company is widely known and in particular when it isn't of the same country of origin as the vehicle's know to originate from.

Mikeado > DCCARGEEK 09/02/2013 at 14:36

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Don't worry, I got it! I'm just unsure of whether saying "made with Chinese money" appeals or not. I suppose if that means lots of money then sure, but if they had a hand in engineering it then it won't be a very safe or well-made Volvo.

Leadbull > Mikeado 09/02/2013 at 14:36

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But what about cars on shared platforms, like the Dart mentioned above? What about the global GM mess?

Mikeado > Leadbull 09/02/2013 at 14:39

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Sharing parts is the same IMO. It's part of being owned by another company, but in a way it's forced collaboration between two companies from different countries.

The Dodge Dart is an American car, but with some Italian tech/engineering in it. They should've called it the Soprano.

dieselwagon > Mikeado 09/02/2013 at 14:42

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I think it makes a difference.

If the company is managed from and their cars are designed and built in the originating country, then I would say they still retain that as their 'nationality'. The money doesn't make it.

However, if the cars are designed and then built elsewhere, then the company doesn't retain it's original nationality.

Using your example, working for a company from another nation doesn't make you from that nation. If you relocate to that nation and immerse yourself in that culture then it's certainly possible to assume that identity, both legally (depending on country) and personally. A personal example would be, should I get the opportunity to move to Australia permanently, I would soon identify myself as Australian rather than British. This does depend on the specific culture of that country, America and Australia are good examples where people can adopt that nationality very quickly and easily regardless of their ethnic background.

Tom McParland > DCCARGEEK 09/02/2013 at 14:43

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Good point, but I'm not sure it was "embarrassment" per se, as a half-assed attempt to apply German cache to a tier-2 luxury car.

DCCARGEEK > Mikeado 09/02/2013 at 14:48

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It won't be long before we could see MADE IN CHINA printed on cars in America. But if they're branded as Volvo or Buick, would we care?

Mikeado > dieselwagon 09/02/2013 at 14:58

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But where that gets tricky is when global car makers have multiple design studios in different continents, and making your products in a factory doesn't affect it either IMO, otherwise by that logic probably 80% of companies would be considered Chinese.

Peugeot have their RCZ built by Magna-Steyr in Austria. Is that car French? The Aston Martin DB5 was designed by Carrozzeria Touring Superleggera. Does that make it Italian?

The fact is that a car company is most often a global business that utilises people and facilities wherever it's most convenient for them. But where they come from is key to their nationality.

PRBot II > DCCARGEEK 09/02/2013 at 14:59

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Is America an American country if it's funded by other countries?

Mikeado > DCCARGEEK 09/02/2013 at 15:01

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It would give them a scapegoat if there were any quality issues.

dieselwagon > Mikeado 09/02/2013 at 15:06

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I generally agree. The design and management aspects, who's controlling the companies direction are more important than the manufacturing when it comes to nationality and national identity. As you say, it gets very difficult when you have truly global car makers.

GM is an American car company and this is badged as Chevrolet, an American marque. Is this an American car?

EDIT: In my opinion, Jaguar is more British now than it was. The direction Jaguar took when it was under Ford ownership was very American, the cars were designed with an eye to the American market. Now they're owned by TATA they seem to be back to Jaguar of decades before, a British marque.

In summary, it's very complicated and it's more about each car than the overall company, especially when it comes to brands under GM and Ford umbrellas.

DCCARGEEK > PRBot II 09/02/2013 at 15:09

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This is true. I'll do my best to refrain from a political diatribe on America's spending addiction.

Oh look! 16 million cars this year. Guess a spending addiction is a good thing

Leadbull > Mikeado 09/02/2013 at 15:25

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Or is it an Italian car with an American badge on it? There isn't simply some Italian engineering in that car, you know.

Leadbull > DCCARGEEK 09/02/2013 at 15:28

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Works for Apple and Nike.

DCCARGEEK > Leadbull 09/02/2013 at 16:11

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Exactly. As much as we want to believe that cars are special and where they are built matters, it's all bullshit. We want things as cheap as possible. If I could buy a car that looked as a good as an ATS, was as safe and performed on par and was a few thousand less, but was made in China - I'd buy it.

Mikeado > Leadbull 09/02/2013 at 16:29

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According to Wikipedia: "The Dart is based on a version of the Fiat Compact platform , like the Alfa Romeo Giulietta but enlarged 1.5" (38mm) in width and with a 3.7" (94mm) longer wheelbase that is now called the Compact U.S. Wide (CUSW) platform."

So in other words, while it may have started as an Italian car, it's been changed to such an extent at the base level that it's not really the same car. Dodge/Chrysler took the platform and made it their own. They didn't just slap a saloon boot on the back and some Dodge badges.

Think of the TopGear ode to SAAB, when they were talking about GM saying "look, this is a Vauxhall Cavalier. All you can change are the body and the badges, that's it" and then SAAB completely overhauled it until there's only a third of the original car left in the resulting 900 NG. To me that's no longer the original car because so much of it is their own work. More so the 9-3, which was so different from the Vectra that they'd even changed the wheelbase.

Leadbull > Mikeado 09/02/2013 at 17:17

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Fair enough.

davidj210 > Mikeado 09/03/2013 at 09:44

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New Minis: Are they British? German? Something else?

MTY85 > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 09:45

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The Location of its global headquarters.

StewMM > MTY85 09/03/2013 at 09:46

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That means most F1 cars are British.

505Turbeaux > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 09:50

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Also, since the Toyota Camry is constantly lauded as the most American by content, labor and design, is it still Japanese? Is a BMW built by Joe in the States instead of by Helmut in Munich (likely pushing the same buttons on the same type robot) - German, or American? Ah globalization

duurtlang > Mikeado 09/03/2013 at 09:54

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What about Ford of Europe. German, British or American?

Speedmonkey > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 09:59

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Depends on a number of factors. Aston Martin is resolutely English, with Middle Eastern owners and a German boss, Bentley and Rolls are German owned with German engines but are totally English companies/brands.

Jaguar are at least completely made in the UK and have an English boss.

The one exception is MG. A totally British company, it was f*cked over by British management and British workers. Now it is Chinese owned and no-one thinks of it as English any more because the product is built to Chinese, rather than Western, standards. MG has sold 156 cars thus far in 2013

BTW I have this Jaaaag on test this week!

Ben C > Tom McParland 09/03/2013 at 10:03

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This, pretty much my thoughts exactly. Where you started is where you're from.

Although my exception could be Ford, because prior to the One Ford policy we have now, they used to have very segregated operations for specific regions with no overlap. So in my mind Ford is American, British (think of the Escorts, Cortinas and Fiestas rolling out of Dagenham) and Australian, depending on product.

Hawkstrike6 > 505Turbeaux 09/03/2013 at 10:06

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A friend's husband used to not let people park in his driveway unless they drove an American car (Detroit 'burbs, 'natch). So when we visited the Honda Odyssey (Birmingham, AL) had to park on the street. I was tempted to rent a Chevy Aveo to park in his driveway (manufactured in South Korea).

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 10:06

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I was recently thinking NASCAR Sprint Cup. That can't be more American, right? Right? Let's see the cars these "stock cars" are representing:

Dodge Charger. They just called it a day (or more like: no teams wanted to run Dodge cars). Practically owned by FIAT.

Ford Fusion. A US-spec. version of the European Ford Mondeo, designed and engineered by the European division of Ford.

Chevrolet SS. A rebadged Australian Holden Commodore.

...yeah...

MTY85 > StewMM 09/03/2013 at 10:11

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The majority of the teams, yeah.

burglar can't heart click anything > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 10:13

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If the electronics fail with regularity - it's British.

If it starts rusting or catches fire before it makes it to the dealer - it's Italian.

If it scores negative stars in crash testing - it's Chinese.

If it has 32 heated and cooled cup holders for 4 passengers - it's American.

If you have to remove the engine to replace a headlight bulb - it's German.

Gabor Vajda (@Gabor_V) > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 10:24

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I get my eyes rolling whenever someone says "Why don't they just bring back the Grand National by, like, rebadging a VXR?"

I do this, because 'VXR' is a term owned by Vauxhall. The Vauxhall Insignia VXR is an Opel Insignia OPC. Vauxhall has no R&D, their cars are essentially just mere right-hand drive versions of Opels (and sometimes Holdens).

That - to me - is just mere miscrediting. I guess it is ultimately just the power of Top Gear.

j4066 > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 10:25

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I think the change of owner does affect the car. When a brand like Jaguar is bought by another country, like the Chinese, it will change. The owners will now have a lot of input, like cost-cutting procedures, into what future editions will be like.

The Stig's Rustbelt Cousin > Hawkstrike6 09/03/2013 at 10:35

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I've lived in the area for many years, and I've known many similar people. I've always wanted to open up one of their cars, remove all the non-American components, and see if it would still run.

TJ_V_67 > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 10:35

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No, they're trying to sell the car to those people who think German is synonymous with quality and performance.

The Stig's Rustbelt Cousin > burglar can't heart click anything 09/03/2013 at 10:37

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YES.

solracer > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 10:38

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Companies don't have nationalities, think of them more like SPECTRE, an international gang with no alligiance to any one country and who's only aim is making money.

Texican > 505Turbeaux 09/03/2013 at 10:43

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And yet my Fusion, with Japanese drivetrain, and built in Mexico would park in the driveway...

Pure87 > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 10:55

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I think GM is trying to reposition Buick as a light luxury brand to try to capture younger buyers. Buick has the reputation of building large, lazy cars for older people and since German cars are synonymous with luxury in the States, simply saying Buicks have German blood is an easy way to add credibility to their claims of luxury.

dogisbadob > 505Turbeaux 09/03/2013 at 11:02

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I recognize the Camry as an American car. Fun fact: Car and Driver used to classify their 10 Best by American/Foreign, but considered the Honda Accord to be American since that's where (most of them) are made.

dogisbadob > Tom McParland 09/03/2013 at 11:05

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Same thing with Ford Europe. Largely a separate company. And I agree.

I don't consider the Saturn Astra to be an American car.

The new Regal used to be built in Germany and sent over here, but they're switching to US production. Hopefully they won't change anything else on it though.

dogisbadob > burglar can't heart click anything 09/03/2013 at 11:06

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What if it's Japanese? :p

DaMata > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 11:14

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From my point of view, the nationality of the brand has to do with it's history. Most important: where they did start.
I don't think it has anything to do with people in other countries owning the company. Also, it has nothing to do with where the cars are built nowadays.

First, let's do some hypothetical examples: Imagine if some rich american (let's say Jay Leno) decides to buy Ferrari. Would Ferrari now be an american brand? What if Ferrari had a factory in the US to build the 458? Ferrari is Italian and will always be. Period.
Now, to the real-world examples: Now that Fiat bought (most of) GM, are GM's brands italian, now? I don't think so.

Where the cars are built changes the nationality of the brand? Let's take Citröen for example. It's french as kisses, right? Half of it's model line up are built outside France:
C-Zero – Japan
C1 – Czech Republic
C3 Picasso – Slovenia
C3 / DS3 / C4 / DS4 / DS5 / C8 – France
Nemo – Turkey
C4 Picasso / Berlingo Multispace – Spain
C4 Aircross – Japan

What about Chevrolets sold in the European market? Check it out:
Spark – South Korea
Aveo – Poland
Volt – USA
Cruze – USA / South Korea / Brazil / Australia
Malibu – South Korea / USA
Corvette – USA
Camaro – Canada
Trax – South Korea
Captiva – South Korea / Russia

You guys in the USA "love" the VW Jetta, right? It's a german car, built in Mexico. Does it make VW any less German?

I think it comes from the brand's heritage and the philosophy of it's products.

DaMata > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 11:16

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That's just because it actually is a German car. It's an Opel Insignia, engineered and built in Germany, then rebadged for the US market.

noise > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 11:17

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"Was GM embarrassed of their build quality here in America?"

if they werent, they should be

Jays81DMC > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 11:18

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DeLorean

Began life in the US. Built in Ireland. Funded by British money. French drive train, body panels stamped in Germany, fuel tank supplied from Norway. AC Delco was contracted for the instrument cluster.

Is it American? Is it Irish? Is is a "British" car?

DaMata > dogisbadob 09/03/2013 at 11:19

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It'll be perfectly engineered and will last forever. However it'll be either ugly or bland.

burglar can't heart click anything > dogisbadob 09/03/2013 at 11:23

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I couldn't come up with anything snarky enough. How about:

If it's as appealing and reliable as a toaster - It's Japanese. Corollary A: If it's as appealing as a toaster and unreliable, it's a Mitsubishi.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 11:27

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In my opinion it's about the profit trail.

Where is the company headquartered and where does the money trail end.

Toyota builds a crapload of cars in the US, they aren't an American brand because the profit flows across the Pacific to Japan.

GM builds and sells cars all over the world, but the trail ends in Detroit making them American.

That's how I see it and there are examples of this for every brand. The Jaguar example is tricky because does the profit flow back to India based off the amount of shares Tata owns? I don't know the details of the arrangement.

Mikeado > duurtlang 09/03/2013 at 11:33

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They're not American, but seeing as Ford Europe was made by the merger of Ford of Britain and Ford of Germany, I don't know which of those it is. Depends where their HQ is, I guess.

Majsharan > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 11:33

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German Cars have a reputation for being really well engineered with really high build quality.

German = well engineered.

Japan = Reliable.

US =cheap/value for the money.

Italy = fun and beautiful but unreliable.

France = quirky ad interesting looking but underpowered and put form before function.

British = Luxury, expensive but expensive to maintain with limited dealership networks.

Carfan77 > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 11:35

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My vote. Where the majority of design and development are located gets influences from that country. Aston and Jag are British as long as Brits are working on the car, everything from Japan comes from Japan, Volvo is TBD - it doesn't matter where the car is manufactured or assembled.

DaMata > DaMata 09/03/2013 at 11:35

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Then there's KIA, to mess my argument up. The Cee'd is as European as the Eiffel Tower. The whole philosophy and build quality makes you forget it's a Korean brand... Dang.

Majsharan > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 11:36

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I think cars are largely more affected by where they are built rather than where the holding company is so I find VW to be more Mexican than German for example.

Mikeado > davidj210 09/03/2013 at 11:39

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I prefer to think they're German, but that's largely because I own a real Mini.

Technically they're still based in Britain and build the cars in the same Oxford factory as before.

Old-Busted-Hotness > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 11:40

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FUNDED BY is a hell of a lot better than MADE IN.

shortyoh > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 11:43

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Who cares?

What I want to see is that they offer a good number of jobs in the US. If the company gets 35% of its sales from the US, it should have at least 35% of its jobs in the US. If that is the case, I consider it domestic, no matter where the headquarters are. If they fail, then it is foreign. Apart from that, I make no distinction if it is classically "German" or "Japanese" or "Korean" or whatever... well, except for China. Until they start respecting intellectual property and the environment, well, their vehicles are completely off-limits to me...

GM, Ford, and Chrysler are all still domestic by my definition. No other makers are, last I checked, but some were getting closer, though not exactly the names people think (ie, Toyota isn't even close)

vc-10 > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 11:44

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Well, it's about where the cars are built, engineered and the 'company ethos'. A Toyota Yaris built in France is still a 'Japanese' car, even if it's built in France. Because they're engineered to the Japanese, Toyota, standards, and their production methods are Japanese.

shortyoh > 505Turbeaux 09/03/2013 at 11:45

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Content and labor, maybe, but most of the engineering and R&D for the Camry is still done in Japan. It is really only tuned and tweaked for the US market here...

shortyoh > burglar can't heart click anything 09/03/2013 at 11:47

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you need a Corollary B for Mazda. They're actually pretty appealing and reliable.

shortyoh > burglar can't heart click anything 09/03/2013 at 11:47

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Should be #COTD on Jalopnik...

thunderdan > burglar can't heart click anything 09/03/2013 at 11:50

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THIS.
This is the true test of nationality.

vc-10 > burglar can't heart click anything 09/03/2013 at 11:51

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Hmm.... the French Renault Megane Mk.2 requires removal of a front wheel, and usually about an hour and a half's labour by a mechanic, to change a headlamp bulb (they blame crash testing for this). They're not German. In contrast, the Golf Mk.5 (same 5* safety rating) is piss easy to change the bulb.

Maybe it's French if it has dodgy electrics, inaccessible (yet frequently replaced) parts, and likes the garage?

505Turbeaux > shortyoh 09/03/2013 at 11:53

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I was under the impression that the Camry came out of the CA design studio, but that was just the Avalon and other beigeboxes...

Autojunkie > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 11:56

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Now it's simply "where does the brand initiate from?".

The automotive business has gotten far more global than it has ever been. Chrysler will always be American whilst Fiat will always be Italian. It doesn't matter so much anymore about where cars are manufactured or even engineered.

Even slightly more confusing is Ford. Ford of Europe and Ford of Australia have produced vehicles specific to their market, but most car people know an early Ford Capri as a "German" car versus any other nationality.

I think as the line becomes more grey, the less tangible a car company's nationality becomes. It becomes almost more of a spiritual idea of its nationality.

burglar can't heart click anything > vc-10 09/03/2013 at 12:02

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If any piece of glass on the car has an inexplicably stupid shape - It's French.

vc-10 > burglar can't heart click anything 09/03/2013 at 12:15

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Or if vital controls like the indicators, or brake pedal, operate in a completely different way to every other car on the road.

shortyoh > 505Turbeaux 09/03/2013 at 12:26

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It is very important to consider the difference between design and engineering, too - their Calty design studio actually does a lot of the design work for vehicles that Toyota sells in the US - but by design, we're talking styling, not engineering/R&D. There are amazingly few design employees at large automakers - most only have a few dozen at most, compared to thousands of engineers and R&D employees.... and it is the R&D and engineering branches that figure out how to make what the designers have styled, as well as developing new engines, transmissions, etc.

So when a company says that something was "designed" in the US, that can actually mean just one or two employees, while the majority of the development work was elsewhere.

To be fair to Toyota, they have hired a good number of engineers, but they're only now getting to the point where any vehicles have the development work led by US-based teams, and that still is really limited to chassis development, not powertrain tech...

BiggsHoson > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 09/03/2013 at 12:28

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So... Chrysler is Italian then?

That's the trick with using this sort of logic to determine a car's nationality - and ultimately why it doesn't matter. The money from GM car sales go all over the place. Factory workers, dealerships, parts suppliers, here, there, everywhere. The vast majority ends up paying for the design and manufacture of the car. The remaining net profits that you'd think end up at the headquarters in Detroit are sent out as dividends to shareholders all over the world.

That's why where it's designed and where it's built is far more important to me than who sits on the board of directors: That American built Honda Odyssey is supporting a lot more of my countrymen then a Korean built Chevrolet.

Bobby Ang > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 12:32

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Jaguar is still British, Rover no longer. End of story.

AlphaZero > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 12:35

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My opinion on what determines an automaker's nationality is simply the country of origin. However I realize as the auto industry has evolved, many automakers are not as black and white when it comes to the country of origin as say 10 years ago. For example, the 2002 Nissan Maxima (fully assembled in 2001 in Japan) but with the current Maxima only the engine and transmission are assembled in Japan. Noting that the good ol' US Government allows Nissan to claim the 2013-2014 Maxima is Japanese.

And I am aware that even some exotic, hyper or super cars are built using parts from many countries. So in this case I'd say the nationality of that automaker is where that company’s headquarters are located.

tekkblade128 > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 12:52

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For me it's mostly about country of assembly. If your car rolls off the line in Germany, it's German. Country of manufacturing is also important. So I'd consider the Camry an American car.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > BiggsHoson 09/03/2013 at 12:59

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I disagree and I'll go a little more in depth.

While the company chooses to spend money supporting dealers, workers, factories, suppliers all over the world like you said, those checks are signed in Detroit for GM. And while a lot of people tend to think of only the factory worker, there are a lot of people working in these two buildings:

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. In the Dearborn area there are over 50 Ford buildings that people work in (speaking from experience, I've been in over 10 of them). There are supporting jobs, massive communities based off of them and because they aren't actually hands on building the vehicle they are often forgotten. If these headquarters were in Mexico (where so many cars are built) those communities would be forced to leave too. So while that Chevy was built in Korea, it may not at the end of the line have less jobs in the US than the Honda built in the US.

Now like I said Chrysler is a tricky one with not a defined clear ownership structure because of the UAW vs Fiat. If all of Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep's checks are signed in Italy I will start assigning them as an Italian brand. It's further complicated due to this gigantic building they fill up in Auburn Hills, MI:

Interesting side bar, the day I got to go to the Chrysler building was pretty cool, you could look down to other floors and see a hallway lined with transmissions, walk a little further and see the next floor full of engines. No wonder we weren't allowed cameras!

The Ford one had a row of Shelby's sitting in the lobby. My thought was if they aren't using them I'd be happy to just take one home...

brunollo > burglar can't heart click anything 09/03/2013 at 13:01

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Couldn´t get any better. Also, if it has no taste, no smell, no colour, it is japanese.

Kinetis > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 13:22

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I don't know anymore!!! When Honda designs, engineers, and builds an Accord specifically for North America consumption, is it still Japanese? Does it make it Japanese because their mission statement is from Japan?

HuskyHauler > dogisbadob 09/03/2013 at 13:23

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Easy. It will run forever and retain is value more than any other vehicle in it's class!

HuskyHauler > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 13:26

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I'm pretty sure Don Draper decides it for us.

HuskyHauler > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 13:37

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It depends on how you look at it as compared to other businesses. American businesses used to be "American products, built by Americans, for Americans, in America." And these products used to be reliably better than imported products.

Now, most products sold in "American" stores/retailers are built for Americans, in foreign countries and the product is imported.

Look at Sears. Sears used to make nearly EVERYTHING in America and they guaranteed their tools. Even their lawn rakes and cabinet hardware was made in America. Now, Sears is simply an American envelope stuffed with foreign-made products, just like most of the "American" automakers. They're "American" brands stuffed with foreign made components.

The real question, is if that make American auto brands less American because the products they sell are not as home-grown as they used to be? And do brands like Toyota, who design, build and sell specific vehicles like the Tundra for the North American market and nowhere else in the world MORE American?

HuskyHauler > Mikeado 09/03/2013 at 13:45

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No, an employee working for a company of a different nationality does not change the nationality of that employee. And if that company was purchased or absorbed by another company of a different nationality, the nationality of that same employee would still not change. However, the nationality of that company would most definitely change.

Beeblebrox237 > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 14:43

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Car companies tend to reflect the car culture of their parent nation in their vehicles. Jaguar makes British luxury cars, and the F-Type, an E-Type successor. I consider Ford to be a world company, because cars like the Focus and Fiesta are not very American, nor are they very much of any one country's culture.

sneakers > DaMata 09/03/2013 at 14:46

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when fait bought GM, I so hoped that they would use moar farrari parts in the next corvatte, but alos they didn't

Driven > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 15:16

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I believe, like many, a car manufactures nationality is where the company was first started, and remains that way throughout it's lifetime. However, this doesn't apply to all companies.

Take Bugatti for example. Bugatti was founded in 1909 in the German (at the time) city of Molsheim. A few years after Bugatti was founded, WW1 broke out, and subsequently moved the German/French border east, making Molsheim a French city. At this point, its Bugatti German or French?

Bugatti continued making cars in France until they went bankrupt in the mid-'50s. 30 years later, the company was taken over by Italian entrepreneur Romano Artioli. Mr. Artioli built a factory in Italy, where the Bugatti EB110 was made. Despite going bust, is Bugatti German, French, or Italian now?

Unfortunately, Bugatti went bust again. However not for long as VW was there to rescue it. The current-day Bugatti is owned and engineered by Volkswagen. Furthermore, Bugatti models are being made in Molsheim, France, once again. So I ask again, is Bugatti German, French, or Italian?

Before you answer, you have to define bankruptcy, and what it means to a car company like Bugatti. Once they go bankrupt, is the company wiped off the face of the earth, to then later be completely remade only using the same name? Or does a company still exist enough to keep things like its origin so when its reinstated, its nationality doesn't change?

KamikazePigeon > Mikeado 09/03/2013 at 16:35

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You've absolutely nailed it.

KamikazePigeon > PRBot II 09/03/2013 at 16:37

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This post just says it all.

Reborn Pyrrhic > Ben C 09/03/2013 at 16:51

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And Brazilian too. Some models sold there were market-unique for a while.

Spasoje > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 17:41

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For me, the easiest answer is that of Volvo. It's owned by a Chinese firm but said firm isn't getting involved in Volvo's operations: they're not telling Volvo how to engineer safety tech, how to design their cars, etc. Volvo is left to its own devices, with the Chinese company giving them money in exchange for access to what they're working on.

As a result, Volvo is a prime example - at least for now - of how a Swedish/domestic company can still be Swedish/domestic, despite its Chinese/foreign owners.

Were the Chinese/foreign owners to get more involved, that could easily make Volvo less Swedish/domestic.

BiggsHoson > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 09/03/2013 at 18:28

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Very good point - I think it just highlights that you need to consider the complete picture. It's not just where the factories or headquarters are. Consider where they put their designers, engineers, accountants, marketeers, factory workers, *and* tiers of middle management. It's not about where the net profit ends up - that's just a few bucks of the top of each car going to hedge funds anyway. It's how the gross profits on sales spread out because that's ultimately the money that drives jobs and the economy.

Designed in Japan and made in an American factory or designed in the US and made in Mexico? Global economies are a bitch ;)

Neckarsulm > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 18:28

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What would be the outcome of an ad campaign titled - “Volvo, made possible my China.”

That would depend, is it coming from a Chinese person and about how Volvo somehow helped develop China? (That is an indirect way of pointing out your small typo where you put my instead of by).

DCCARGEEK > Neckarsulm 09/03/2013 at 19:04

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I just fired my editor.

MoparOrNoCar (Okay, maybe a Mazda?) > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 19:37

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I would say the placement goes in this list:
1-a. Original country of origin. (Original country the company was started/headquartered in)
1-b. Current country of headquarters
(the country is decided by which was the longer tenure)
2. Public perception of company's country.
3. Country of manufacture of most of the parts
4. Country of design
5. Country of assembly
6. Country of funding. (Such as Volvo-China and Chrysler-Italy)

Going down that list, the further down, the less important in determining the Country of Origin. If you get 2-3 of the same, stop and that's your country.

Margatroid > 505Turbeaux 09/03/2013 at 19:49

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The American-market Toyota Camry is what is lauded as American. In Australia, the Camry is made in Altona, Victoria with Australian labour; the headquarters in Toyota City, Aichi also make the Camry using Japanese labour. List of places where the Camry is made, stolen from Wikipedia:

Australia: Altona, Victoria (TMCA)
Japan: Toyota, Aichi
China: Guangzhou
India: Bidadi (TKML)
Russia: Saint Petersburg
United States: Georgetown, Kentucky (TMMK); Lafayette, Indiana (SIA)
Indonesia: Sunter, North Jakarta (TAM)
Taiwan: Kuanying (Kuozui Motors)
Thailand: Chachoengsao

Margatroid > DCCARGEEK 09/03/2013 at 19:59

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I don't think you could say that automakers have nationalities, that seems to be too sweeping a statement. But individual models do, and it doesn't necessarily line up with the country of origin of the carmaker.

Europeans would get mad at you if you called the Ford Cortina or Transit American; they are purely products of Ford of Europe.

The Ford Falcon is a 100% Australian car, with its own chassis, components, and straight-six engines - so much so that Ford HQ in America wanted it dead.

The Chevrolet Aveo was initially designed by Daewoo as a Daewoo Kalos to be sold in Korea, and GM rebadged it for the American market, but it's still a Korean car.

The Toyota Solara was designed in the US for American drivers and was built in America. It is an American car.

Shanghai61 > Margatroid 09/03/2013 at 21:51

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"The Ford Falcon is a 100% Australian car, with its own chassis, components, and straight-six engines - so much so that Ford HQ in America wanted it dead".

A decision made under the 'One less Ford" global policy.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > BiggsHoson 09/04/2013 at 09:46

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First, I want to say thank you for being receptive to a counter point. Not always the most common reaction on the internet (lol).

The majority of the US companies (big 3) have their HQ, accountants, credit divisions, engineers, 87 levels of middle management (lol), and top level executives in michigan. Including their ad agencies, which Ford probably employees 3-4,000 people between their ad/marketing network outside of Ford. (I've worked for Chevy's ad agency, Ford/Lincoln's major ad agency and now smaller/secondary agency of Ford/Lincoln all in metro-Detroit).

But yes, global companies are a bitch to keep track of.

Mikeado > HuskyHauler 09/04/2013 at 10:32

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I still say that being owned by a foreign company doesn't change your nationality. They can strongly influence what you do and fund most or all of it, but you're still the same company, and thus from the same place.

Chrysler's not Italian now that it's been bought by FIAT, is it?

HuskyHauler > Mikeado 09/04/2013 at 12:11

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Well, I suppose it depends on how much influence the new foreign owners exert over the company. However, I do foresee Chrysler changing more and more ever year and becoming more and more Italian in design and influence. And to be honest, it really needs it. Chrysler has become a brand entirely destined to rental car fleets.

Mikeado > HuskyHauler 09/04/2013 at 12:26

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To me the only time I can think of when a car company changed nationality is when Rover died completely and then came back as Roewe. The new Chinese owners SAIC got the technology and so on but couldn't get the rights to the Rover name, so while they've started with Rover's cars they're now entirely Chinese in brand, HQ and manufacture.

The closely-related MG is a bit of a grey area though, because they've tried to resurrect parts of the original company, even partially designing the MG6 in Britain and building Europe-market cars in the original Longbridge factory. Just to ensure they're a bit shoddy ;-)

BiggsHoson > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 09/04/2013 at 13:28

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You're right! Sorry for dropping the ball on that counter point... What I meant to say was you're an idiot and your children are ugly and I hope your dog poops in your shoe!